Opening sales figures from the United States Mint have been released for the 2023-S Proof Morgan Silver Dollar and the 2023-S Proof Peace Silver Dollar. Released on Aug. 9 for $80 each, the pair accounted for a combined sales total of 589,585 coins through Aug 13.
Both dollars are still offered by the U.S. Mint, with more than 100,000 available for each based on their standalone mintages of 400,000 apiece.
As for the numbers, starting sales of proof Morgan silver dollars totaled 303,629 coins, comprising 292,189 coins for the standalone option (product code 23XF) and 286 units for the 40-coin bulk option (product code 23XF040), which amounts to 11,440 coins.
Meanwhile, the proof Peace silver dollar reached 285,956 coins in the early going, consisting of 274,156 coins for the standalone option (product code 23XL) and 295 units for the 40-coin bulk option (product code 23XL040), which equates to 11,800 coins.
In related news, sales of the 2023-P Uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar and the 2023-P Uncirculated Peace Silver Dollar stepped back for a second week in a row.
Released July 13 for $76 each, with both essentially selling out within 24 hours, their combined total dropped by 2,034 coins to 546,339. In the previous week, their sales fell by a combined 781 coins.
New sales figures for the pair have their splits at 273,935 coins for the uncirculated Morgan silver dollar (down 272 from the prior week) and 272,404 coins for the uncirculated Peace silver dollar (down 1,762 from the prior week).
Standalone mintages for the two were set at 275,000 apiece.
On Nov. 14, the U.S. Mint will offer the pair of dollars in a special reverse proof finish.
Coin News, thank you for fast update.
Interestingly, in looking at the Mint’s report, all of the losses for the Morgan and Peace Uncirculated are from the standalone options; there were no changes to the Bulk40 numbers. I’m very surprised that the Peace Uncirculated returns far exceeded the Morgan, because all of the quality issues reported here by commenters have been with the Morgans.
Major D,
I am also puzzled why the Bulk40s aren’t constituting the majority of the returns, unless perhaps the major flippers haven’t gotten their coins graded yet. As for why the Peace Dollar returns are exceeding those of the Morgans, I haven’t a clue.
I thought the mintage of the Proofs was way to high at 400,000 each on these silver dollars from the beginning, & the amount left unsold so far after everyone could buy as many as they want shows that to be true.
NumisdudeTX
Yeah, 100,000 sounds much better than 211,000 short. I also don’t recall a 24 hour sellout of the uncirculated. Seems we went from less than 70 returns from first report to over 2,000 this week. That’ll show a huge % change in sales. That is, if they do the full rundown list like they’ve been doing. I wonder if the proof not selling because of the quality issues of the uncirculated. Seems several people said their proof was flawed, but no pics posted. I also wonder how many they’ll mint of next year’s series. But I do gotta say, at… Read more »
I’ve received 4 Morgan/Peace Dollars so far, proof and uncirculated, and they are all in excellent condition. Maybe they make sure I get coins that would grade 70 if I decided to have them graded, due to the fact that I am one of their best customers, but I doubt it. All kidding aside, I’ve been pleased with the quality of all my Morgans/Peace Dollars, going back to 2021. I too am thinking of reducing my order for the RP’s to just 2 sets. There’s still plenty of time to make that decision though.
Craig,
I had a funny feeling you were on the Mint’s “We always make sure our best customers get the shiniest and otherwise absolutely perfect coins list”.
Kaiser,
I just called the Mint and yes, they verified I’m on their ‘best customer that get the shiniest and otherwise absolutely perfect coins list!’ Thanks for edifying me about that list. Regarding these Morgan/Peace Dollars, for the money we’re paying for them, they better be in perfect condition.
Craig,
Did you imagine even for a second I wasn’t giving you the absolute facts and nothing but the facts (ma’am) as to exactly how our glorious Mint views one of their most esteemed, highest regarded and above all eminently prized customers?
What Craig fails to disclose is his last name is Mikaska-Mezack
This latest news leaves me on the fence as to whether I should offer congratulations on his obviously stupendous windfall or stealthily submit a denunciation to the Numismatic Police.
Good one, Dazed!
The pictures of the proof coins with this article are Proof 70. Anything less is likely a Proof 68 (like mine). It’s the favored dealers who get in early and the lucky few who get their hands on a Proof 70 or Mint State 70 coin. They are nice but I’ve never gotten one myself. Go figure.
Antonio, To make sure that I get a PF or MS 70 I always buy several coins of each. I bought 6 each of the Morgans and Peace and sent them to grading. I got 6 MS70 Morgans and 4 MS70 Peace. I simply sold off the spare coins at cost on ebay and all 8 of the spare 70’s sold in 8 hours on ebay. I’ll probably lose a total of $20 on the MS69’s by selling them below cost. Just a little effort really, to maintain a 70 collection and sometimes I’m able to sell the spares profitably.… Read more »
Rodney and Antonio,
I am at a loss as far as how to respond to this variety of grading outcomes and quite frankly baffled regarding the reason for same. How did your fortunes, after having received your coins from the same Mint, end up being so different?
Rodney, So you buy several with the goal of getting a good one(s)? What’s your ebay “name,” so I can get an MS70, too? What was the sale(s) price? Being transparent. I want great coins vs. flawed coins. Thx
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175856244177
I don’t actually know what my coins grade because I don’t send them in to get graded. I simply look at them under a magnifying lens and they are all in excellent condition, by that I mean there are no marks or flaws.. With all the 70’s I see on the tv coin shows, you have to wonder if these grading companies aren’t compromised by their biggest customers. If you can’t see a flaw or mark on a coin, how would you really know if a coin bought as a 70 wasn’t in fact a 69? They both look the… Read more »
Exactly, yes trust. I’d like to know which grading service is best to use to return a highest grade. I believe my uncirculated coins may all come back as MS70 but I’m sure that the best I’ll receive for my proofs is a PR68. The pictures at the top of the article are PR70 coins. You can see by the heavy cameo. I’ve never gotten a coin from the Mint with that heavy of a cameo. Judging from my graded 1995 W ASE, which is a PR68, all my proofs are a PR68. Maybe I should have them regraded and… Read more »
Antonio,
Perhaps I’m being a bit too cynical here but I would suspect that the grading service that returns the most ’70s would be the one quite possibly least worthy of your trust. Just sayin’.
Yes me too. Because I would like to know how they are able to “Pre-sell” Proof 70s? How do they know how many 70s they are going to get back from the Grading Service? What if they come up short?
Jim,
We can wonder about that numbers game question forever but without some authentic insider knowledge regarding what the relationships between the flippers and their grading services consist of and precisely how they are structured we are sure to end up being kept in the dark, which is to say entirely clueless.
Craig,
This brings us back to the idea that sufficient magnification will almost certainly lead to any coin’s disqualification as “perfect”.
Dazed and Coinfused,
I’ll bet your right; the blemishes on too many of the Uncirculated Dollars might have served as a caution in regard to the sales numbers of the subsequent Proofs.
I’m hoping they melt the unsold ones… thus increasing the value of the two I have in my vault.
Seth,
I wonder why the Mint didn’t keep the number of the Proofs the same as the Uncirculated.
Kaiser,
They should have I think. Maybe because they are the first Proofs of this new series, they thought there would be a quick sellout at 400,000 each.
NumisdudeTX
Seth, why would you think there has to be a quick sell-out to be a success for the Mint? Frankly, a quick sell-out means they left money on the table, as in it was in so much demand that they could have produced and sold more or priced all of them higher. They’ll sell out before the end of the year, which is enough.
Major D, Probably, but the Mint still has coins from 2017 & 2018 & 2019 for sale because they set the mintages so very high. Plus, the last Mint Director was adamant that there be a sellout on first day or first few days of coins to pad his resume. So they put the lower mintage of 275,000 for the Unc. Morgan & Peace dollars, but it could have been 400,000 also like the Proofs you think? The numbers just seem screwy. Also, everyone, collectors & dealers, who wanted the Proofs either had subscriptions or ordered more after the HHL… Read more »
Seth,
Perhaps Caffeine Mike “Sold Out – Limited Edition” Mezack will scoop them up and in his best inimitable snake oil style manage to sell every last one of them to the Great Unwitting just before The Holidays as ideal gifts for family, friends, co-workers, the mailman, the doorman and the occasional mistress.
Seth, I agree about not having products go into the next year. It’s too bad that all leftover products don’t get destroyed like with the commemoratives. However, it’s only August 15th. Let’s see what happens.
Major D,
When it comes to coins the implication of “destroyed” causes me to wince. Can we possibly settle on “repurposed” instead?
I’m sure Magic Mike would not be opposed to that “Repurposing”…Maybe into rings and necklaces for QV2? lol
Jim,
And I’m not sure I want to end up in the same philosophic camp as Mike “Sold Out-Limited Edition” Mezack on anything.
How long does the Mint keep old, unsold coins for sale? Still 9,465 American Liberty One Ounce 225th Anniversary Gold Coins unsold … and 15,829 1/10 ounce of same. Both from 2018. Should be melted, imo. They’re not selling.
Jeffrey Schwartz,
The Mint is not required to melt down any coins after a certain period, except the official commemorative coins authorized by Congress & signed into law by the President (those coins can only be sold for the 12 month calendar year they were issued & then any left on December 31 must be scheduled for melting).
NumisdudeTX
Seth,
Old news but the mint “minions” seem to not be required nor to be held accountable. I remember our discussion several years back on the “spouses” that were to be destroyed but were later sold off to a “favorite entity” still no accountability for probably breaking the law on that nor for exceeding product limits on some coins too..
chuck,
You are right on that issue…seems there has been no real accountability at the Mint on these kind of issues. And now they won’t even tell us the names of the 18 coin dealers in their exclusive Authorized Bulk Purchaser Program who receive big benefits that regular customers do not.
NumisdudeTX
Seth, Thank you. I learned something. P.S. For transparency, I do own the 1/10 ounce.
Jeffrey Schwartz,.
You are welcome. I like that particular gold coin in both sizes back in 2017 & 2018. Very different & made history as a first.
NumisdudeTX
Seth Riesling and Jeffrey Schwartz,
I would have been thrilled to own the full size 2017 Worlds Best Coin variety of that but the price was too dear.
Jeffrey,
So do I. That is the only gold coin I have ever bought from anywhere and I’m so glad I did. The design is great and you can’t beat the 24kt look; just awesome!
Seth, Thx. Did not know.
Jeffrey, How does one go about submitting a hardship application to the U.S. Mint on the basis of having been a lifelong conscientious and trustworthy “shoulder to the wheel” worker and taxpayer for the gratis acquisition of a single American Liberty One Ounce 225th Anniversary Gold Coin? After all, if so-called students sufficiently dimwitted to have enrolled in let’s pretend colleges and who have likely not engaged in an honest day’s work in their entire lives are now in the process of getting fully recompensed courtesy of the American taxpayer, then my ask amounts to no more than a miniscule… Read more »
Kaiser Emeritus, Can’t answer that one.
No matter, Jeffrey, but thanks for the courtesy of a reply and for the “fancifying” of my CoinNews identity; much appreciated!
…and they pushed these HARD!
Well the first year coins were selling for $85 for uncirculated coins and they sold out quickly. This year it was $76 for an uncirculated Philadelphia coin. If more people see how the proof coins look, they should sell out quickly. I haven’t seen any advertising and so I assume people don’t know they exist. They are nice looking in proof, considering this is the first frosted and mirror finished proofs for these coins. The Morgan dollars were in a different finish but some brilliant uncirculated coins look proof like. I’m happy with both my uncirculated and proof coins. Didn’t… Read more »
So your uncirculated look like the proof? Then what’s the real difference
Hmmm. Stylistically, artistically, existentially, or metaphysically?
More like “proof like” than a proof, since it’s from Carson City.
Antonio,
You obviously have a very good attitude towards life. There is, after all, nothing wrong with having hope as long as one can accept the possibility of the outcome going another way.
Yep, true.
Antonio,
I just put on my Carnac the Magnificent hat…
I see a 70 coin in your future.
With today’s society of instant gratification if it doesn’t sell on 1st day it ain’t worth it (see campers for new iPhone, better yet… see people that pay people to camp for them for new iphone). A fast sellout could mean sold too cheap, but mint made their markup ( see the v75 end of ww2 coin, doubt the mint cares it sold for what it did, would bet you mint workers are the ones selling em for $20,000. While we all online waiting, their family standing at mint gift shop with cash in hand). Another possibility, they figure 2021… Read more »
Dazed and Coinfused,
“Director’s cut.” I love it!
Can I get one under the subscription program?
Craig,
Hopefully there will come a day when we can get every single one of the Mint’s offered products via the subscription program.
Major D,
There’s a possibility I will admit I hadn’t given any consideration to.
Seth,
Whatever the Mint thought did not turn out to be the right thought for the Mint.
Kaiser, because the proofs always sell more than the uncirculated.
Apparently not this time. Maybe the reverse proofs will fare better. I’m still a little sore about no proof coins last year. I really had my hopes up.
Have you tried the fiji mint? I hear those were the coins the mint should have made.
Dazed and Coinfused,
All of the major mints in the world try their best to emulate the stellar output of the Fiji Mint; alas and alack to no avail.
Antonio, the Peace Uncirculated has sales of 272,404 while the Peace Proof has sales of 285,956 and counting. Meanwhile, the Morgan Uncirculated has sales of 273,935 while the Morgan Proof has sales of 303,629 and counting. So, yes– the proofs have more sales.
From these numbers, I see collectors/dealers prefer the Morgan dollars over the Peace dollars. All in all, a mintage of 400,000 proof coins for both types seems too much, considering these aren’t coins for circulation. Also the price for coins which aren’t a full ounce is affecting sales and not seen as worth it for people who buy coins from the Mint. We’ll see how they sell in the after market. On ebay, I’m seeing the average price for an uncirculated 2023 Morgan dollar is around $96.
Antonio, honestly whether it’s a 0.85-troy oz silver Morgan, Peace or commemorative dollar vs. a 1-troy oz ASE or silver medal is not materially significant when the coins/medals are priced at around $80 and the silver price is at $24. For the former, you’re losing out on let’s see, 0.15×24= $3.60 in silver.
Major D and Antonio,
It appears that the Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars have generated a considerable degree of enthusiasm among domestic American collectors. What I wonder about as a consequence is how this translates into the international collecting community with regard to the interest in these coins as compared to their desire for American Silver Eagles.
Antonio and Major D,
Thanks for your individual and combined input. I am starting to enjoy some(!) of the surprises that collecting occasionally sends our way. Not everything always has to go as planned; that could actually be less interesting.
Have you purchased any of these coins? Do you have a preference of Morgan or Peace dollar?
Antonio,
I picked up all four, meaning one of each Uncirculated and one each of the Proofs. As far as preference, I like them both.
I agree with you Seth. I bought a couple, but was very disappointed with the high mintage for them.
Robert, I don’t disagree as I always prefer lower mintages, but at least the Mint published a mintage limit and product limit for these in advance, so we all bought knowing that– unlike with the ASEs which are all open ended.
Major D and Robert Thomas,
To paraphrase a popular old saying, you can please some of the people all the time and you can please all of the people some of the time but you can’t please all of the people all the time.
Agreed…Just feels like a common coin now, with not much future return or unique pride f ownership.
Did anyone else get an animated Peace Liberty? With a bright light shining from behind me, if I tilt the coin from side to side, it looks like Liberty is puffing her cheeks!
Kia99,
Are you high & using a black light?? She’s just got a wad of chewing tobacco in her cheeks… Lol.
NumisdudeTX
Well, Liberty is a tough lady, I take from your response that your coins don’t show the moving cheek circle?
That one looks like a keeper, Kia99.
Kia99,
In more ways than one. (see below)
Kia99,
Thanks for the pic! My 5 coins do not show that interesting circle. Not sure what it is.
NumisdudeTX
Could it be reflection of ring light? Influencers love using round lights. Does it do it in sunlight? Does it disappear if you submerge it in acid? Try turning it off and on again or hit it. Seems to work on older TV
But not on smart coins.
My three Peace dollars look similar to yours. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. Maybe that means they’re PR69! Don’t get my hopes up.
Is this possibly a distorted reflection of light off of the capsule?
Harryg
…shows up without the capsule. It has the visual character of the enhanced proof frosted variations.
Sorry about that. It detracts from the eye appeal. I would consider a return for a replacement being that there should be some still available. I regret not returning one coin from 2021 but feared I could not get a replacement because they were sold out.
harryg
Since it only shows up in particular lighting, I’ll consider it an enhancement and keep the coin.
Kia99,
Precisely the decision I made regarding my ever so slightly blemished 2023 Uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar.
It’s not a flaw. You have to tip the coin a certain way under bright light.
With that view, to be honest it looks like George Washington.
And here I was going to say George Jefferson.
Thanks for pic
Yea, my girl does it to. Tip her to the left under a bright light and she puts her tongue in her cheek. Kind of a cool effect.
Jim,
We (and Antonio) must have coins from the same unique die. The mint did something special in the laser frosting step that created the circular ghosting cheek. When frosting dies, I suspect they normally go out-of-their-way to avoid recognizable patterns in the frost areas.
Seth,
Or her date just got very lucky.
KAISER!
I know, Kia99, I know. Shame on the old Kaiser for letting his covert naughty side out of its high security container and into the spotlight.
Kaiser,
Lol. So Lady Liberty is no proper lady??!!
NumisdudeTX
Well, Seth, that really depends on what proper means and to whom.
Why do you think she’s called “Liberty”?
Does that have something to do with shore leave?
If you referring to the tear in her eye, could be she got lucky, but her man too exuberant and poked the coal chute.
Good things happen to bad people.
Just to let everyone know, my Morgan proof is flawed, looks like a tiny black hole right below the eye. Who knows, it may become a “teardrop” or “crying Morgan.”
Anyone else with this problem?
Coinman,
Lady Liberty with a black eye! Interesting… didn’t have that on any of the 5 coins I got.
NumisdudeTX
Well if she had 2 black eyes ain’t no need to tell her again because she obviously doesn’t listen.
Remind me of that Toby Keith song
Maybe it is a prison tat indicating she killed somebody
A little tear drop tattoo. She’s a killer.
If you flip the coin over, does it have it? Does it say not my president? Maybe she got beat down for wearing blackface on her 2017 coin. Hard to say these days
No, Coinman, I can’t say I experienced that particular issue; on the other hand, my Uncirculated Morgan does have a clearly visible smudge blemish at the uppermost section of the obverse. It appears the luck of the draw has held true to old form once again, as in “you win some and you lose some and some get rained out.”
Once again, I bring up that I have a 1996 W uncirculated dime with a finger print on it. That’s as bad as it’s been for me. All my Morgan and Peace dollars look fine except for the issue of they probably aren’t MS70 or PR70 coins; then again, I haven’t gotten them professionally graded yet.
Antonio,
I’m not sure whether I should value my not knowing or feel bad about it; either way I’m not having my coins graded so that will remain a mystery.
Received both my Morgan and Peace Dollars today and I am happy and relieved to report that both examples are absolutely flawless. Very pleased with this purchase. After receiving the UNC versions earlier this year which I found to be disappointing, I was very concerned about the quality of this purchase. It really takes the joy out of collecting when you feel it is a roll of the dice as far as QC is concerned.
All mine look good and I look forward to the reverse proofs when they’re delivered.
Now that’s what I’m talkin’ about!
Now for the reverse proofs. My 2021 reverse proofs look good.
Antonio,
That’s good to hear. Hopefully the 2023 Proofs will be at least as nice.
Considering the subscriptions started a year in advance I’m surprised they have not sold out.
Rooster,
It seems the Mint imagined the demand would exceed the supply, but the opposite has apparently occurred. This is how we learn, after all, through our mistakes.
on EBAY, typing in 2023 Morgan Dollar yields 2300+ entries.
2023 Proof Morgan yields 839 entries
Peace Dollar has similar results.
under advanced search for 2023 Morgan Dollars indicates over 2200 sold.
many of these total include multiples coins (e.g. 1 Morgan and 1 Peace, or 2 Morgan, etc.) so the numbers available and that have sold are greater than the values shown.
Tom,
Not only does that seem like a lot of inventory and sales consternation on ebay but it serves up a nice bit of confusion regarding the counts for me.
Kaiser,
The flippers are flipping out that they can’t make a profit on these raw coins due to high mintage & will have to pay to have them graded for any chance of getting a 70 grade & making a profit then.
NumisdudeTX
Seth,
The flippers having their now low-price coins graded as a sort of desperation measure in hopes of making a decent profit exposes these resellers to the potential for even greater losses if the coins come back graded lower than 70 with the flippers already being out both the original purchase price and the subsequent grading fee. Incidentally, my heart bleeds for them.
I have two flawed proof Morgans. Does anyone else have the flaw in the star just under the chin level? Pictures of it are not really any good but under a magnifying glass it looks like there may have been something in the die so the star is only half height and not smooth. And although it does not show up on the picture there is a slight error on star right above and it is exactly the same on both coins.
Hi John Haney,
I looked at mine, all the stars are fully formed and frosted. Looks to me like you got an error coin!
Jeff Legan and John Haney,
What we’re seeing here might be a couple of really nice error coins. How about that!
Defective planchets, grease filled die, die fatigue, die cracks, and die failures, etc. are not technically considered error coins. Generally speaking it is the action of the die striking the planchet where true error or variety coins occur. DDO, DDR, RPM, for example.
harryg,
I’m as far from an expert on that as can be, so I defer to your knowledge.
The thing that struck me was that I have two and they are identical. So, my guess was maybe something hard was stuck in die? And I’m wondering if anyone else has the same? So maybe the error is not an error but just an error 🙂
From the PCGS I found this blurb in the error section. What stands out is the ‘anything that happens to the coin up until the final strike’. And since I have two that are identical, I do not believe anything happened after the final strike.
A mint error is defined as a coin made incorrectly at the mint and encompasses anything that happens to the coin up until the final strike of the dies. As soon as the last strike occurs on a coin, anything after that is defined as PMD.
Simply put, where exactly do you draw the line between literal definitions and interpretations? With each planchet (variations occur with each planchet), each die (variations occur with each die), strike of a coin and tonnage exerted 35- 100 or 540 tons ( varies depending what is being manufactured), the speed expected for that press to produce coins, number of coins produced (die wear) and maintenance to keep the presses running (grease,) every coin can potentially be a entity unto itself. It is not inconceivable that you received two coins manufactured very close to each other where the grease blocking the… Read more »
I will add, “First Strike”, “First Release”, MS70 or MS69, really? Fuzzy lines and definitions all intended to imply additional value. Is there an official number that was agreed upon where they could no longer claim to be “First Strike”? 1000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 coins? We are certainly not privy to this valuable information even as the die wears with every strike meaning coin 27,000 will not be exactly like coin 300. The average person would not know the difference between a MS64 and a MS70 except for the implied additional value. The same motivation applies to alleged “error” coins.… Read more »
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/production-process/coin-production
A very useful tool but curiously MS70 does not exist here.
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Morgan/Grades
I would add, for proof coins the dies are replaced quite regularly, my understanding they they never reach 10,000, and maybe even 1000 would be a lot. anyway: for a good write up on ‘first strike’ read https://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/article/first-strike-coins-buffalos-eagles/ here is some of the article Note that NGC does not say that the coins eligible to be labeled First Strike are among the first coins struck but are coins shipped within in the first month of release. Further, here are three sentences on the NGC website that add insight to the First Strike issue: “Collectors have always sought out coins of special significance, and one way that a coin can be… Read more »
A defect plain and simple.
Sure, it is a defect. Technically speaking anything that is wrong with a coin is a defect I reckon. The question though is…is the definition given by the PCGS the correct one for an error and not just a defect referenced as a PMD? I guess I’ll send one in to them and see.
This is certainly not PMD or an error.
I tried to post some links for informational purposes but don’t think the Folks in charge here allowed them for some reason. Sorry if I crossed a line or did something wrong in attempting to do so.
I can work with keywords to find the links if you care to share. The paragraph I referenced from the PCGS is a direct cut and paste. There is much more on the page as well.
Everything is context.
US Mint / Learn/Production Process/Coin production.
PCGS/ Photograde
Go to youtube and just observe the avalanche of alleged errors found in your every day pocket change that has implied value over face value. This is how they hook the novice
I am conflicted about these claims attached on many of the videos because it does pique interest in the hobby of coin collecting but that 1987 penny “error” does not add value in the real world.
harryg, John Haney, Tom and Jeff Legan,
While I must admit that I cannot begin to fully comprehend and totally absorb all of the technical references and assorted supporting data as discussed in the series of excellent comments of the truly engrossing thread above, I have to say I very much appreciate all of the enlightening and relevant details that were shared for our edification here by all of you erudite contributors.
We all learn as we go every day. I have probably tens of thousands of coins I’ve collected and inherited over the years. But I have always shied away from proofs and errors until these simply because of the design of the Morgan being a favorite right behind the double eagle. So, I am still learning on both proofs and errors. I managed to take a few more pictures today that show them a little clearer.
One of them.
The other one.
An error, an error! Worth more! Looks like a PR70 to me. For what I know.
Maybe? Crazy though that at least two made it out of the mint as proof coins in this condition.
How and why any non circulating coin let alone proof coins with serious defects like this are released by the mint is simply unacceptable and appalling in my mind. Just a guess but this defect is possibly due to a partial grease filled or wearing die. In 2021 I received 1 Morgan Dollar from the SF mint with a major gouge on Lady Liberty’s Cheek. It seems consistent quality and pride in manufacturing is no longer a priority like I remember it to be back in the day.
harryg,
While the quality of Mint products is a tad more erratic now, I for one don’t know why.
I suspect a few factors are contributing to the overall decline in quality control in end products. Number one in my mind is attempting to manufacture such a wide variety of new products and the frequency of new releases intended to please the public and be all things to all people while financially propping up daily mint operations for general circulation coins which the mint currently must manufacture at a loss. Same programs, fewer new releases per year might take the pressure off and improve QC. Honor 3 women instead of 5 per year. Simply manufacture the Proof version of… Read more »
I must add, Dollar coins? America has rejected the concept of Dollar coins in circulation a long time ago. Thankfully, we will eventually run out of dead Presidents to honor.
harryg,
Beyond the foolishness, as you said, of having to continue minting unwanted dollar coins, I will take this opportunity to once again point out the at least as pointless tilting at windmills that the ongoing production of the cent represents.
I have to laugh. Before everyone was complaining of the mint website crashing, Bots, the inability to purchase coins on release day, and not enough coins. So the mint upped the mintage,added wait rooms, subscriptions. Now its all too many coins of this or that and why it didnt sell out. I see a definite divider between coin flippers/investors and numismatists.
I’m laughing also. I guess complaining is happiness for many. Not to mention the politics on this forum is getting out of hand lately.
The difference is that there are those like me who want ‘one’ of an item, and under old rules it was a crap shoot against the big hitters. now with subscription one can get that item, and after giving people a chance (weeks or months) the mint can lift their limits, etc.
I still believe the Mint should base how many they produce of any item on how many subscriptions they get, plus a small percentage more, no more than 10%. I enrolled for proof ASEs in 2007. I only had to fight the crowds and bots when the Mint released special sets. I always wished I could subscribe to those as well. I got locked out of a special one in 2017, the only time that has happened to me so far.
I recall the battle to get the 2019-S enhanced reverse proof ASE. I got one but haven’t been down that road since. Life is too short.
Christo,
If I remember correctly that occasion involved one of the biggest and worst bot attacks of all time. A couple of good things that resulted from the incident were the Mint putting the principal bot offender on notice and significantly improving its anti-bot system.
Jeff Legan,
I hope the Mint is listening to you since those are some great ideas.
Tom,
The advantage has now has been tilted from the flippers to the collectors.
Not to mention that subscriptions are in and those pesky bots are out.
Christo,
Can’t dispute any of your points. I’ll make an effort to subdue my own arguments.
That was 2021. Each year is different. And besides, Trump did loose in 2020.
Rather than having eyes the hills are now alive with the sound of music.
Domenic Vaiasicca,
Right on target observations with superb descriptions and excellent analysis. Well said!
Such is always refreshing. I apologize about bringing politics into this. I thought it was funny but forget some people don’t think so. I personally don’t take politics that seriously as it’s always fluctuating.
Antonio,
I’ve promised myself to avoid any mention of politics; it’s just not worth it.
Put me on the happier now than then side of the divide. I hated the bots and flippers. Now I get what I want without having to get into a bidding war on eBay.
REB,
Congratulations for joining what I hope is a growing crowd on the bright side.
Kaiser,
My ‘Bright Side’ comment of the day is I received my trio of proof Morgan and Peace in the mail yesterday and today and except for a minor milk spot on one of the Peace, flawless beautiful coins all. My grandkids will enjoy Birthdays and Christmas even more this year.
Christo,
Congrats on the great quality of your just received coins and a big bravo for providing your grandchildren with such striking gifts. Kudos all around!
I will be happy with 1 example of each Morgan Dollar, Peace Dollar, and ASE each year via subscription as long as the quality is acceptable.
harryg,
Truer words cannot be said.
Hi Reb, I am happier, but not satisfied yet unless all products can be subscribed to. That 2019 ASE with an arbitrarily low mintage of 30000? I do not want to see those low mintage numbers again unless only 20 some thousand subscribed + 10% max additional minted put us there. This will mean all the collectors will be able to always get one and the flippers will not know which coins will be valuable until the subscriptions close (which would be when the Mint releases final subscription and mintage numbers). Let the flippers fight over the remaining 10% or… Read more »
Jeff Legan,
Last numbers I saw a couple of years ago, the Mint has reduced it’s number of employees greatly over the last 10 years or so. Robots & electric eyes they use now cannot beat the hand inspection of a human who knows the coins best. Proof sets at the San Francisco Mint used to be individually inspected quickly by a trained person until maybe 20 years ago.
NumisdudeTX
Seth,
That explains a lot as to why the quality level of the Mint’s coins has taken more than a little bit of a dip of late. I don’t personally claim to have a solution to this rather unfortunate reality but I would suggest that the Mint do everything in its power to attempt to rectify this somewhat sorry situation.
Hi Seth,
That explains a lot. Maybe AI (as opposed to my friend Al. Yes, first and third instance of use are a capital i, 2nd one is a small L) can help in the future. I would think AI could end up putting coin graders out of work, too. I would think computer intelligence would be good at that type of work.
Funny, before I posted the comment the capital i and the small L looked exactly the same. Now the capital i has the horizontal bar at the top and bottom. So much for my rare attempt at humor.
That’s funny Jeff. I had the same thing happen when I was attempting a joke about aliens (of the ufo kind) at the expense of my friend, Allen. They’re both worthy or a Gary Larsen cartoon (like the one with the yard sign warning, “Beware of Doug”, with Doug hiding in wait behind a tree).
H’mm, but it doesn’t explain all the red threads- unless the machines are now wearing red gloves….
Jeff Legan, I am with you there 100%. Subscriptions for all Mint products would take all the unnecessary but seemingly inevitable stress and anxiety out of the entire year’s process of coin purchases. One really has to wonder as to precisely what is holding up the show in this regard when it’s clear the subscription program has shown itself to be such an unparalleled success. As for replacing the ASEs with the Morgan and Peace Dollars, I would have no quarrel with that move; I think the former have had a more than long enough run. My own additional suggestion… Read more »
Hi Kaiser Wilhelm,
I like your idea about the Kennedy half dollars. Lots of people do not even know they are still being made. Kennedy has about as much relevance to the America of today as Reagan. I have not heard a Democrat mention Kennedy with reverence for at least as long as the last time I heard a Republican mention Reagan with the same. I seem to recall some years ago they made a one time new version of the Walking Liberty half. Am I remembering correctly? I think I bought one.
Jeff Legan,
The Mint did indeed make a gold Kennedy half dollar in 2014 & a gold Walking Liberty half dollar in 2016.
NumisdudeTX
Seth, just saw that you and Rich responded with the same answer at the same time independent of each other- reminds me of Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace.
Hi Jeff, your memory serves you correctly – the Walking Liberty 2016 Centennial Gold Coin
Hi Rich, Nice to see you are still active. I did see Major D welcome you back not too long ago so I knew you were still around, but I was wondering for a while. I noticed your absence. My memory wasn’t that good, hahaha. I did not remember it was Gold. I never got one. The only Gold I have ever purchased were 2 of the 2009 UHR Double Eagles (1 to sell, which I still haven’t. There is a defect in the wooden box. The coin is not secure and falls out if you hold the box upside… Read more »
Jeff, thanks for the kind words. The old St Gaudens Double Eagle is also my all-time favorite American coin. The two 2009 UHR Double Eagles you purchased have sure appreciated nicely over the last 24 years, going from the original Mint issue price of $1,189 (and then $1,089 when it was available for purchase a second time later in 2009) to a secondary-market retail price of about $2,750 today (ungraded US Mint OGP). Even the OGP Box & COA sells for $40 and the OGP Book sells for $20 by themselves.
With your fact filled and informative contributions to this site, you earned those kind words. I have often thought you could author a few articles yourself here. Over the years, I have thought about purchasing another box on the secondary market but what always stops me is the possibility that I would end up with 2 defective boxes. Nobody ever mentioned that issue so I have no idea how extensive it was, and so many people grade coins nowadays that many might not have even noticed or cared that the box was defective.
Rich, that explains why I didn’t find one- I was looking for silver half-dollars.
Jeff, the more I think of it- the Mint could end all coin production – and collectors/speculators/dealers would still find coins to collect/buy/sell. As a hobby, we’re all a relic of the past. And if a Walking Liberty half was brought back (last one was 1947), it would just be labeled a new modern series of coins, unrelated to the originals as the Red Book and possibly Seth (?) would argue.
Hello Jeff Legan,
I’m happy to see you back in full swing here; you were missed!
I’m really glad you brought up the issue of the Mint already having taken the initiative to produce a new version of the Walking Liberty Half Dollar. As our fellow collectors and CoinNews contributors Seth Riesling and Rich pointed out and Major D attested to it was the 2016 Walking Liberty Gold Half Dollar Coin, and what a beauty that is! How about a silver Enhanced Reverse Proof Walking Liberty Half Dollar next?
Jeff, you make a good case- and I’ll join the “ending the ASE” bandwagon (even if it’s just you and Kaiser so far) but unfortunately, feel there’s just too much crass feeding off it for that to happen. From my perspective, the ASE and the whole slabbing industry that’s built around it is a rather unsavory aspect to numismatics and collecting in general- not to mention sustenance for counterfeiters and hucksters. I believe it will get worse as many of the small dealers (which tend to be older individuals) retire and liquidate their inventories all-at-once, flooding an already overly saturated… Read more »
As for my last sentence, I should have added “unfortunately”.
Well Major D, even if it is never more than us three, at least I am in good company.
Major D, Your description of the state of the coin hobby is spot on. PCGS started slabbing coins in 1986 & NGC in 1987 & they plus ANACS have graded almost every truly rare U.S. coin in the past 37 years. I heard from an NGC employee that NGC makes almost half of their annual profit from grading all types of the ASE $1 coins alone. If the Mint stops making them, NGC is out of business basically. NGC grades more of those coins than PCGS because they give dealers & auction houses a big break on the per coin… Read more »
I wonder what would happen if one of these grading companies did go out of business? Would that mean their library of bar codes would become defunct? That would surely have an effect on every coin that they graded and slabbed if it could no longer be verified. If so, that sure sounds like a risky affair to rely on such overpriced plastic encased “investments”.
Major D,
That would be disastrous of course. The thing to remember is that the third party graders only offer an opinion, but they guarantee it for as long as the company is in business. And, other TPGs all offer “crossover” grading services for coins in another company’s slabs.
NumisdudeTX
Major D, Seth Riesling and Jeff Legan,
In regard to how long any particular incidence of grading and encapsulating will last, I would guess that in the case of every coin in existence it is the content which will long outlive both the grading company and the owner of the coin. Essentially, therefore, all grading and encapsulating may well be considered as being only a temporary solution in the long term.
Kaiser, I was referring more to the verification part. The plastic will likely last a long time, but the point of encapsulating it I thought was to provide integrity to the coin and grade- seeing that it could not be swapped out without damaging the slab, the owner had assurance that the real authentic coin was so contained with the proper grade. However, since counterfeit slabs have been introduced with fake barcodes, unless you’re able to authenticate the barcode you don’t know what you have.
Major D,
“Trust, but verify.” – President Ronald Reagan.
NumisdudeTX
Seth,
That is some really sound advice.
Major D,
My point was simply that as graded coins continued to go through changes of ownership and grading companies might even go belly up all of the security factors that grading is supposed to bring to bear would more or less go out the window.
Happy with the coins. Has anyone noticed that the S mint mark is slightly larger on the Peace dollar compared to the Morgan?
Hi Gary,
That is how they look in the pictures at the top of the article.
Not a fan of Mint quality control folks. Marks on my Morgan and Peace coins. This Morgan has pits on the right side of her head and a small booger hanging out of her nose 🙁
The Peace Dollars have pits over them. This Morgan is 3.4x zoom from my mobile phone 🙁
Chris, it might be on the inside of the lens and not the coin. I opened up a couple like that and was able to blow out the lens with a can of compressed air duster. It’s awful that we’re left with having to do that. I’ve also had to do that with some silver coins from the RCM.
That’s good news to learn of Major D.
I’ll give it a go this weekend on the Morgan & Peace dollars. Fingers crossed all will be well.
I watched some program on TV about the Mint some 10 – 15 years ago. Mint was so proud of the proof coin program and showed their employees wearing white gloves and handling each coin individually stressing how important it is to keep the coins blemish-free. I hope when I pop the cases to be pleasantly surprised just dust / debris atop the coins and not on them.
Keep us updated if you don’t mind Chris and good luck.
I finally cancelled my Morgan Proof order. No. 1, the order was seemingly stuck “processing” for a long time. Weird. And No.2, I’m concerned about quality. The thought of going through the process of returning a sucky Proof coin (very technical word there) .. not worth the hassle. I’m seeing too many QA examples where that possibility weighs on my mind.
Jeffrey, I think the probability of a sucky Morgan or Peace proof is likely less than 1 in 20. But I agree it’s a hassle when you get one to go through a return.
I tend to agree, Major D. Remember, you will always hear more about the complaints than compliments (long ago I worked for a department store, so I know–May Company, if anyone is interested). My proof Morgan looks perfect to me. My proof Peace has a small scratch on the reverse (slight possibility it could be contamination, I did not open it to look closer, it wasn’t that important to me right now. Maybe someday), but it is not like that is the first time that has happened to me after buying from the Mint regularly for 16 years. If they… Read more »
Jeff,
I’d be heartbroken receiving a scratched proof coin. So, the emotional roller-coaster of eagerly awaiting a beautiful collectible, only to get damaged goods, is part of what weighs on me, too. Part of the potential hassle. I cherish the Morgan and Peace history. A big reason I started collecting. Wonderful coins. Delighted they’re back. But a scratched Proof is unacceptable QA. My opinion fwiw. The irony is my local coin dealer only offers spot for Proof silver dollars. Quoting him, “Pffft, Why a premium for Proofs?! — they’re too good! Spot.”
Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your comments. I have seen a few of your posts over the past few weeks, maybe a month. I think you might have started posting when the Morgan/Peace articles started appearing. In the real world, things are rarely perfect, why should coins be any different? I must have, I don’t know, maybe 50-100 ASEs now. It would be unrealistic to expect they were all perfect, the world just does not work like that. I really wish it did, though. I am pretty sure I am a classic “dreamer”. Your coin dealer that offers spot for proof… Read more »
Hi Jeff, put me in the multiples category. I ordered a few more Morgan and Peace just in case- and sure enough some had scratches and those will be returned. I’ve bought so much from the Mint, if they want to cut me off because of a few returns- then I guess I’ll be saving money. I’m all for eliminating the middleman (and this is in answer to Jeffrey, too) so I’d never sell to a dealer. Dealers do have to resell, and they have their overhead expenses to cover in addition to wanting to make a profit (the whole… Read more »
Thanks for information Major D. The time is getting closer to when I will have to sell most of my coins. I want to sell most of them before I die rather than having whoever would end up with my coins after my death leave money on the table because they have no idea of their value. There are a few I enjoy so much I will keep them until death.
Jeff,
I am taking my best coins with me to the “afterlife” like King Tut took his treasures with him (& then we stole them from him). Tomb robbers will have to pry my coins from my skeleton hands! Lol.
NumisdudeTX
Hi Seth, If it follows historical averages, your tomb will be looted anywhere from days to around 50 years after internment unless you hide it successfully or have eternal guards. I do not want any permanent marker, a hole in the ground (preferably in some woods) and no coffin is fine for me. Interestingly, I did know a guy who was buried with an item worth a million or millions of dollars. The great thing is that the item does not look valuable or desirable unless you know its historical significance, so I am pretty sure it wasn’t stolen from… Read more »
Jeff,
There was a lady in San Antonio in the 70s I think & she was buried in her convertible luxury car with a formal evening dress on & it made national news & even got a comment by Johnny Carson on his show. They poured cement into the grave covering her & the car for eternity. Yes, you can take it with you! Lol.
NumisdudeTX
Seth,
A bit surprising they didn’t also build a pyramid over her grave.
Jeff,
It might not be all that long before body burials are banned. No room.
Hi Kaiser Wilhelm,
I kind of like the idea of replacing cemeteries with forests, with a body fertilizing each tree seedling.
Jeff Legan
That’s a spectacularly inventive solution. Forest fertilization forever!
Seth,
Are you by any chance taking a trackable phone with you also?
Good one!
Jeff,
I’ll sell mine so my heirs can have the cash without the work.
I have the same plan, Jeff- and I’m about 5 years away from that happening. Some coins I gave to my son years ago when he was a teen, he ended up spending them as cash. So much for gifting any coins with numismatic value. We’re best aware of the value of our collections.
Kids and Teens are why collectors sometimes find unexpected treasures amongst the circulating coinage. I got that 1996-W dime Antonio keeps (amusingly) complaining about with a fingerprint on it, out of a vending machine at work as change in the early 2000s. No fingerprint! But I put it in my 5 gallon plastic water jug that I toss old circulating coins in. I knew it was unusual, but was not into collecting until a few years later. It probably isn’t scratched yet, since the jug hasn’t been moved since before I added that one to it.
Major D,
That 100% is the standard markup across most retail businesses.
I’m hoping my subscription for the reverse proof 2023 Morgan & Peace hold it’s value.
Any thoughts? Should I cancel?
Crystal Meth,
If that is just your online moniker, no. If it is your choice of recreation, then yes.
So I got six and five of each of the uncirculated and I got seven of each of the proofs and all of my clients came flawless in perfect condition. I was wondering if anybody sent theirs back I wouldn’t want to send money back because I would be afraid I wouldn’t get it but all of mine were fine, so I don’t understand why they were so many people complaining I think they’re just the resellers and that’s it
I’d say you lucked out, Matthew. But some are indeed flawed, and collectors are saying so evident by the posts here. Just curious, are you calling your coins “clients” or is that a typo?
Major D and Matthew Wheeler,
Same question regarding whether “money” should be “mine”; just curious.
Incidentally, while you were very fortunate to receive all 25 coins in perfect — and congratulations on that, by the way — condition, that doesn’t necessarily mean everyone else was that lucky. I really don’t think returns were limited to those by professional resellers and/or individual flippers.
I can vouch for that, as I’m returning some flawed ones and I’ve never sold a coin yet. Although, I do want to sell someday- so, perhaps I’m a flipper wannabe.
Major D,
Ah, as opposed to my tack on this you are returning your flawed coins. I just didn’t have the guts to return my blemished Morgan because I assumed I would in exchange get someone else’s in even worse condition coin. For whatever reason the old truism “nothing ventured nothing gained” didn’t apply for me in this case.
I don’t think you’ll qualify as a flipper just by selling some coins down the road. To be one of those you would have to move your merchandise just as soon as you originally purchased it.
Where can i buy Morgan silver dollars
anywhere
Major D,
“anywhere” is right on target! The Mint struck hundreds of millions of Morgan dollars of course since 1878…and Mints in Communist China are still striking them in very high quality & it’s not against the law there. They will even throw in a free fake PCGS, NGC or ANACS slab to display them in!
NumisdudeTX
Dave, The better question to ask is where can you buy genuine Morgan Silver Dollars, which is the question that is stopping me from collecting old ones. Even if someone tells you that you can trust dealer x, can you really? Probably the only old ones that you can be 99% sure are real are worn and with the highest mintages (because the Chinese wouldn’t bother, I hope). I suspect even trusted dealers have had some counterfeits pass through their hands. I see ads all the time now saying things like “we just found 3000 brilliant uncirculated Morgan’s in a… Read more »
Jeff, “because the big money is in slabbed coins with a high grade.” Should I be worried about buying 2023 Morgan and Peace MS70 and PR slabbed PCGS silver dollars, right now? I agree buying from the Mint is best. But I want, without worry, high-quality (no scratches, spots, etc.) silver dollars – even at a higher price. So I don’t have to worry about a flawed product. Alas, if China is into the PCGS (slabbed) business, should I be concerned about the listings for these coins on ebay, too?? Because of Mint QA issues, (see attached), I’m looking in… Read more »
Jeffrey Schwartz,
At the very least if you get your coin directly from the Mint you will know it is genuine. Once it becomes a secondary market item, regardless of what the reseller attests to, there is no way of being 100% sure you aren’t being flummoxed, and especially so because sometimes even the dealer you want to buy from has in fact has already been swindled himself.
Hi Jeffrey, I guess it depends on how quickly the Chinese learn to counterfeit the new ones. I would guess you could safely buy them on the secondary market for now, but for how long I do not know. I sure hope they can’t manage it within a matter of weeks or months. Just for the time it takes to ship stuff from China, you are probably quite safe for around 3 months. Maybe they won’t bother for a while because they are not expensive enough coins yet. Would their methods be sophisticated enough to produce convincing fake proofs? They… Read more »
Jeff,
This:
”You could ask if an individual you are buying a new Morgan or Peace Dollar from on the secondary market can produce a receipt from the Mint for their slabbed coin, along with the rest of the original materials.”
Is a great idea. Thank you.
P.S. White glove guy 100%
You are welcome. I am glad I could help.
Jeff Legan,
You certainly posed all the right questions regarding the proof of authenticity of graded coins. From watching lots of videos and reading at least as many articles about that very subject I have come to the conclusion there is almost no guaranteed way to know that what you get, even if it is slabbed, is in fact the real McCoy.
Dave,
The U.S. Mint is a good place to start. The one stop guarantee of total authenticity.
Wanted to point out an observation. Peace showed up just before the weekend. All coins were in their boxes in the same way, same position, as expected via any automation by USMint. They were perfect, no flaws. No compare to my experience with the Morgans. They were not in the boxes in the same position, and had flaws. Why? I am betting that these were returns to the USMint from pre-sales.
Fviia,
And I am betting that you’re absolutely right.
I wasn’t going to open my coins up, but decided to in order to get a look at them. There is green stuff under the capsule in a number of them. I have a number of coins that have an identical scratch between one and dollar on reverse. So I assume something was in the die. Too hard to photograph. What is the difference between an error and a defect? I included a photo of the one with the green stuff. There doesn’t seem to be any quality control.
I went through all 25 coins. 5 had the same scratch between the one and dollar.
1 had some scrapes which was unique to the box. 17 had the same gouge to the E in STATES. 3 coins did not have either problem. So 22 out of 25 have an issue. I think these should be varieties since there seems to be so many with the same problem.
That is terrible. I hate doing returns of anything, but I probably would here. 22 out of 25, man. I really do not know much about error coins, but there are some that are considered valuable that I think to myself “really?” I am uncertain as to the one you say is scraped.
Jeff and Bubba,
This was not the Mint’s finest hour.
Hi Bubba, I am not an expert on this by any means, but I would think any scratches or gouges will always subtract value, while anything that happened during the manufacturing process to make a coin appear different than its peers will add value. I still think the coins John Haney got for example, would be worth more not less. I could be wrong, there does not seem to be a consensus so far. His pictures and the comments are somewhere above, if you didn’t see them. Were you subscribed or did you order yours later? Maybe you got someone’s… Read more »
Jeff,
What irritates me the most is that the Mint will never admit to nor speak out about there being a problem with the quality of some of these Uncirculated and Proof Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars. C’mon Mint folks, at least own up to it.
Bubba I saw where you mentioned you weren’t going to open them up. I think you are talking about the cardboard box they are shipped in? What are the pros and cons of such strategy. I have started leaving some of mine in their box after a local coins store said it could increases value. Just interested in y’alls thoughts.
Ken,
Just a couple of ideas regarding that. If you don’t open the boxes, how will you know if there is any damage to the contents? If there is a reason for a return or exchange, by not opening the boxes you will miss the seven day return window.
Hi Ken, I have been keeping all the ones that come to me for since 2019 now in their original shipping cartons because the cabinet I bought to keep my coins in originally (in 2007 or 2008) became full, so I started doing this accidentally. These cartons are starting to take up a lot of space in the room. A Con. I started seeing people selling “unopened cartons” on ebay and such, not sure if before or after I started keeping them in their cartons. The first time I saw that kind of thing previously was “unopened” “Magic the Gathering”… Read more »