U.S. Mint Taps Stack’s Bowers to Auction Privy Mark Flowing Hair Gold Coins

This Represents the Third Time the United States Mint Has Selected a Third-Party Auctioneer, Each Time Selecting Stack’s Bowers Galleries

141
Privy Mark 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coin
Stack’s Bowers Galleries image of a Privy Mark 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coin

Stack’s Bowers Galleries is honored to announce that they have once again been awarded a contract from the United States Mint to auction an exciting selection of modern rarities.

Presented in a stand-alone auction on Thursday, December 12, 2024, will be a special offering of 2024 Flowing Hair High Relief Gold coins struck to commemorate the 230th anniversary of America’s first silver dollar — the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar. These exciting gold coins serve as a faithful homage to the original dollar, featuring obverse and reverse designs re-sculpted by Mint medallic artists.

Included in the Stack’s Bowers Galleries auction will be the first 230 gold coins struck in this series, each featuring a "230" privy mark to designate their historic significance. Struck in 1 ounce of .9999 fine gold at the United States Mint facility in West Point, these special privy-mark gold coins will be available exclusively through the Stack’s Bowers Galleries sale. Each has been graded by Professional Coin Grading Services (PCGS). They will also feature a special Certificate of Authenticity hand signed by United States Mint Director Ventris C. Gibson. The very first of these privy marked coins  will be accompanied by the canceled obverse and reverse dies used to strike the series, presented in a custom-built box that houses the coin and the dies.

The original 1794 Flowing Hair silver dollar symbolized the birth of a new chapter in American history and the global economy. Designed by Mint Chief Engraver Robert Scot under the guidance of Mint Director David Rittenhouse, just 1,758 dollars were delivered on October 15, 1794, and fewer than 150 coins are estimated to survive for today’s collectors. Stack’s Bowers Galleries has handled every significant example of this issue across their 90-year history, setting a world record for the first 1794 dollar struck at over $10 million and selling numerous others for strong seven-figure sums. They are excited to bring this same record-setting expertise to the auction sale of the privy mark Flowing Hair gold coins this December.

In recognition of this historic offering, Stack’s Bowers Galleries will also waive the Buyer’s Premium on these 230th Anniversary gold coins, meaning that the highest bid on each lot (the hammer price) will be the final amount paid by the winning bidder (excluding shipping fees). Further, in accordance with the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution, the Mint is not obligated to charge or collect any state sales tax on the sale of these Flowing Hair gold coins, which should encourage even stronger bidding from collectors!

This partnership represents only the third time the United States Mint has engaged with a third-party auctioneer to present a special coin to collectors, and Stack’s Bowers Galleries is honored to have been selected for each of these three occasions. Stack’s (in partnership with Sotheby’s) was selected for the July 2002 sale of the only 1933 Saint-Gaudens double eagle authorized for private ownership, which went on to realize a then-world record of over $7.5 million. More recently, the Mint awarded Stack’s Bowers Galleries the contract to auction the special 35th Anniversary American Eagle at Dusk and at Dawn coins which realized over $4.6 million in their September 2022 sale.

Stack’s Bowers Galleries is proud to have been selected by the United States Mint to auction the privy mark 2024 Flowing Hair gold coins and is excited to present them to the collecting community in their exclusive December sale. For more information about these historic 230th Anniversary gold coins or to register for bidding in the auction, please contact Stack’s Bowers Galleries today at Info@StacksBowers.com or 800-566-2580.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

141 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
sharks2th

Reverse

Screenshot_20241115-155128_DuckDuckGo
East Coast Guru

Time to move on from these shenanigans. Although I tried to buy this coin, I was forced to remove it from my bag due to the sellout. Reflecting on this I think one of the reasons I didn’t like it all that much was the same reason I didn’t like the gold Kennedy, gold walking lib, gold Standing Lib, gold mercury dime. They all remind me of cheap gold plated coins you see at swap meets. The coins were all originally silver, now done in gold and for some esoteric reason I am turned off by them. Perhaps if the… Read more »

Craig

ECG,

Damn, I’ve got all of those Au coins in my safe! Should I just throw them in the garbage can because you’ve seen cheap wannabes? Maybe I’ll just keep them for the time being. I do agree with you in that the mint should’ve pressed some in Ag. Hell they could’ve done a Au and Ag set and made a ton of money with each denomination.

East Coast Guru

Craig, yes throw your gold classic coin copies away. But first wait till I get there to verify. JK, to each his own. Glad you like them and that’s all that matters. I was reflecting on my somewhat indifference to this latest gold copy which I would have bought had the mint been reputable. I may buy it at a show in a few years when prices come down from here.

Craig

ECG, Having some patience is the frugal way to go if you absolutely need the Au FH in your collection. They usually come down in price after all the hype has faded. Of course, I’ve been wrong about everything related to this coin so who knows. The only encouraging thing is that so many of them are on eBay that we know a large % bought them only to flip.If folks in the secondary market refrain from buying, the prices will come down quickly. Those type of iindividuals don’t like holding something they had to pay for! Personally, I’m looking… Read more »

sharks2th

@Craig – I agree, if people hold off buying and the flippers get burned again it will cut down on their interference. A lot of them were burned a few years back and for a while there were less of them around. Hopefully a better deal can be had in the near future on the FH. The mint needs to go back to the ordering window. This is the best and most fair system. I put this in every survey I get from the mint and actually told this to a mint official in a discussion a group of us… Read more »

John Q. Coinage

FHG w Privy wil go for $40-50 for 69s……. $80k+ for the “70”. Can you even see a difference

Craig

I’ve never been able to differentiate between a 69 and 70 graded coin. They look the same to me. I see on the website (I know the action hasn’t even begun) that the 1st, 5th, and 230th coins are bringing the most bang! I’ll probably refrain from spending the prices you think they’ll go for as there are a whole lot of useful things I could buy with that sum. We just have to wait…

John Q. Coinagech

I left it in my bag. Orders to remove, give me a break.. I liked the Gold issues of those coins. As for this BS, who is surprised? I knew it would happen I advance and said so. Buying from the Mint is like trying to feed insatiable desire for profit over mission

VinnieC

@ECG, @JQC. If you leave it in your bag it makes it slightly faster to buy it in the 7:30AM fire sale, but you might not want to partake in that foolishness after your experiences on the 14th.

John Q. Coinage

Well, I am in Hawaii often, and it’s a 3:30 am sale there……. Anyway MEZAK et al, get a heads up B4 those drops for sure. And the reminder don’t get me started. I’ve requested approx. 10 reminders, I got 2 LATE ….2/10…. Ventris is hitting .200 time for a new hitter

Craig

You lucky dog! Do you have a house there? I’m a little envious.

John Q. Coinage

A lot of friends and family. Kona and Maui. Funny thing is eating out is about the same price as the mainland, supermarkets another story…. But there is and are…COSTCOs

VinnieC

For me it is a 5:30AM sale. I would prefer a 3:30AM sale because sometimes I can’t sleep and am still awake then. For 5:30AM I sleep for an hour or two wake up try to my something within the first 30 seconds and success or failure I go back to sleep for a few more hours.

Rick

How often is the 7:30 a.m. fire sale?

VinnieC

@Rick they are really irregular and sort of like @JQC says maybe only those in the know have any warning. Usually the morning or two after a big sale like the FHG or FHS they seem to happen. People theorize it is purchase that didn’t go through due to credit card date errors or exceeding household limit. Otherwise they are completely random. The quantities are small so if you thought November 14 was bad this is even faster. Things come and go in half a minute. I thing I picked up @CAGCRISP highly touted 1/10 oz. gold eagle once (FOMO).… Read more »

Last edited 18 days ago by VinnieC
Craig

VinnieC,

Do you own dogs too? I haven’t had a restless night sleep in years. Lol.

VinnieC

@Rick the pundits on Collectors Universe placed guesses that they sold ~400 FHG the morning of 11/15 and maybe 44 were available the morning of 4/16. I think the 400 was based on order numbers. I wonder if the 44 was from putting 99 in you bag and see how many they allow you to buy. That trick only works after they lift the household limit (I want “AvailableCount” back!).

Rick

400 available the next morning…
Wow

John Q. Coinage

Wow disgusting is one angle, FRAUD, or collusion seems to call for a real GSA and Justice Investigation. Millions at stake, and lies to the public. The worst was they “mistakenly “ lister about 440 Enhanced Rev ASE wiithout HH limits shortly after THAT debacle, they were supposed to be offered to reminder folks and the public. Inthe knows snapped them up like drunk giddy sailors. Mint said oopsy boopsy and let the lucky insiders get a $1k+ coin for $35. I. The past I have had sales cancelled by the Mint, but that they allow. Gee I wonder why.… Read more »

VinnieC

I think the ~400 were still under the household limit constraint because it was less than 24 hours after 11/14 12:00 PM. The subsequent day’s fire sales I think had the HH limit lifted. I didn’t pay close attention when the HH limit was lifted. I should place closer attention for future reference.

CaliSkier

Well Golly! The die being sold with coin #1, was canceled with an “X” vs completely obliterating the details by sanding! You can see the “230” and this IMO, is going to sell for $250K+. May even push up to $500K? We will see… After all, if the first gold Kennedy Half dollar sold at the Chicago ANA Convention was sold for $100K, $500K doesn’t seem to be much of a stretch of the imagination. CoinWorld article titled, “First gold Kennedy half dollar sold resells for $100,000” by Paul Gilkes. (Aug 7, 2014) https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/first-gold-kennedy-half-dollar-sold-at-ana-show-resells-for-100000.html#:~:text=This%20Proof%20gold%20Kennedy%20half,%24100%2C000%20in%20about%20two%20days. PS “2021 American Eagle at Dawn… Read more »

Craig

Agree the 1st coin w/ dye will go for serious money. $500k might be too small an estimate, who knows. It’s already at $70k! I’m not going to be surprised if it doesn’t go for seven figures, as there are some very deep pockets out there in this world.

smalltimecollector

no doubt once the news outlets get the word out.
I have ship confirm. These roll out from Irving TX.

Sam-I-am

Craig,

That #1 coin & die set looks like it’s packaged in a very nice Red Oak Box!! You’ll have to have it! Outbid Magic Mike!

John Q. Coinage

Notes also Say Ventris will hand deliver #1 with a platter of her special Mac N Cheeze

Craig

As much as I do desire the 1st privy coin w/dye, that’s way outside anything I would spend on a coin, even one with a beautiful Mezak Red Oak Box! For the sum that coin will bring, they should give you a pallet of those boxes. lol.

Kaiser Wilhelm

Craig,

If the Red Oak Box is an exceedingly low-serial-numbered exemplar hand-branded by Magic Mike himself the price will go stratospheric.

Kaiser Wilhelm

Sam-I-am,

The additional cache’ of the Red Oak Box should easily double the price!

John Q. Coinage

That Au JFK is worth maybe $3k now

Kaiser Wilhelm

John Q. Coinage,

My first reading perception of that was $3 which struck me as quite the bargain.

HarryB

reviewing all 230 coins on the Stacks-Bowers auction, I was surprised at the number of PR69s…..I expected all 70s……if someone really wants one of the privy marked coins and can live with a 69, I would expect some to go at $10K or less.

AdamL

I agree if 69 I would consider paying 10k but not more. I managed to get one I under 1 minute. Not going to sell it. Will get it graded by PCGS.

Craig

HarryB,

I hope you’re right about the cost for a 69 privy FH. I’d buy one for that.

John Q. Coinage

Easy $20k for 69, more like $35-45k

Craig

You’re probably right John. All we can do is wait until the 12th and watch the fireworks. The big coin dealers will most likely grab them all.

VinnieC

@Harry elsewhere it was commented that all 230 privy of the get graded whereas on the non-privy FHG, submitters can specify minimum grade or weed out all the coins that they don’t think will make 70. That skews the statistics for other slabbed US Mint modern coins.

HarryB

VinnieC: yes, I know often only 70s are encapsulated by the TPGers…. but in this case the entire population of 230 was graded and encapsulated……providing a rare opportunity to develop a ratio of expected 70 yield from a production population. If we knew how many sets of dies were utilized in the privy marked coins, we could develop a clear picture of potential 70s…..speculating, I suspect only one set of dies were utilized in producing the 230 pieces, with the 69s being the last produced.

Craig

HarryB,

2 of the 1st five privy coins pressed are apparently 69’s. Is that odd, I don’t know.

CaliSkier

You could be right HarryB, however much like the At Dusk and Dawn ASE’s and AGE’s, the labeling appears to indicate that a given coins order of strike was tracked? For instance with the 2024 Flowing Hair Gold: “2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coin. Special “230” Privy Mark. 2nd Coin Struck. Proof-69 Deep Cameo (PCGS” indicates this was the 2nd coin struck. Grades could be attributed to planchet flaws, handling or contamination of dust or particles as Rick pointed out in his pictures attached to his comment on grades?

CaliSkier

2024 Flowing Hair auction price reassessment. The Dusk and at Dawn American Silver and American Gold Eagle link to the Stack’s Bowers auction results below. “To celebrate the 35th anniversary of the American Eagle series, the United States Mint introduced new reverse designs for the silver and gold eagles, and the transition between the classic and new designs was commemorated in a striking ceremony at the West Point Mint. During this ceremony, former Director of the Mint David Ryder personally operated the presses to produce the final 500 coins each of the classic gold and silver 1 ounce coins and… Read more »

9ACDA7BF-1824-4578-9776-B392C2EF21F2
East Coast Guru

Cali, great research. Question to ask is if any of these dawn to dusk eagles have sold in the last year or so and for how much. I am assuming they have sold for less. Seems like the bidding was a frenzy at the time and now that the hangover has kicked in, some successful buyers are wondering to themselves “what did I just do?”

Craig

ECG,

That’s one reason I’m not a fan of auctions, there’s always people that spend like their world will end if they don’t ‘win’. It used to be you could get bargains at auctions, not anymore.

DaveSWFL

Amen, brother on the bargains disappearing from auctions!!

CaliSkier

True dat’ Craig. I know that once you’re hooked or addicted to auctions or a product you really want, the discipline, control or lack there of, can go right out the window! I got sucked in by the adrenaline produced by winning or competing for winning bids on eBay a little over 10 years ago and after seeing my CC bill, I decided I needed to stop cold turkey! Literally found myself, buying coins of all sorts, seeing nothing but future dollar signs, often paying more than they were worth then and now are worth even less. One must be… Read more »

John Q. Coinage

I used to work for an Auction house. One time I got to sit on the Dias and prepare the lots for bid. While at it I noticed some bidders had “invisible “ competition. This being pre internet or phone bid days. Maybe 1 or 2 counters the hammer. When I asked the boss he said they had to be careful to not sell stuff to the “water cooler” (the invisible bidder)…. But I also noted many got sucked into,the excitement and held their cards up way to long…..
400 FHG sold day 2…. :>{

AKBob

Cali, You are so Spot On My Friend!! When I was a beginner, my heart would be pounding, anxious, sweating, shaking, etc. trying to Snipe a coin! That doesn’t happen to me now but…….on these low mintage, highly in demand coins, etc., it can still happen to me although on this FHG it didn’t happen cause I just knew I’d get one! WRONG, I didn’t get one :(. It’s funny now and I’ve mentioned these feeling before and I could tell I wasn’t alone, lol! I thot I was the only person this happened to. 😉 Thx for sharing your… Read more »

smalltimecollector

In the early 1980’s I attended an auction that had various items from a pioneer family from our small town. Bought one box that did not get bids as I did not have the budget to participate in the feeding frenzy. FF to ebay era. It’s kind of a nice research tool, and every once in awhile I’ll watch something and be offered a price by the seller. Very seldom buy anything there. The mint, after my 2019 burn I boycotted and don’t pay attention to the hullabaloo. I do go in early on a few LE offerings. Since 2019… Read more »

Kaiser Wilhelm

CaliSkier, “One must be careful, as coins and the hobby are meant to be enjoyed, not lead to heart attacks and financial ruin or hardship, due to lack of self control.” I’m so glad you brought this subject up and in fact managed to point your finger at the very heart of what has been going on of late and occasionally perhaps too often at that. It appears many who were once simply straightforward collectors have now branched out into the less strictly numismatically relevant area of re-selling, especially of the high-margin flipping variety. I will make no judgment of… Read more »

Last edited 17 days ago by Kaiser Wilhelm
CaliSkier

Thanks ECG! I did notice that many of these are listed, however overall there appears to be very few takers for what the sellers are asking.

Rich

Cali, from Coin World, Stack’s Bowers auction of 2021 American Eagles brings $4.6 million (Sep 9, 2022): The Stack’s Bowers Galleries Sept. 1 sale of 2021 American Eagle silver and gold bullion coins from the last production of Reverse of 1986 coins and the first of the Reverse of 2021 issues generated prices realized of $4,616,700, including one American Eagle gold coin that had a six-figure final bid. The 700-lot sale Sept. 1 offered 2,000 coins total, in single-, double- and quadruple-coin lots — the last 500 pieces struck of the old Reverse of 1986 designs and the first 500… Read more »

2022-1011-Image5-sm
Rick

HarryB @FHG Privy, There’s 45 PF69’s vs the 185 70’s and I think that’s a pretty good ratio for quality.. I’m sceptical on a 69 going for 10k. I’m thinking higher. Just my $.02… John Q, Yes you can see a difference between the 69’s and 70’s, but mostly under magnification. Sometimes with the naked eye like Privy coin #28 below… High Rez TruView finger zoom/click for your convenience… 1) below the date under “24” is a nice gold flake debris field pressed in. 2) A surface gold flake(but stuck)right in front of her mouth. 3) Reverse, a cloud nebula… Read more »

Rick

Here’s another one,
Coin #31 a PF69,
Just too big of debris hanging out down there near that date. And look at the star field/gold dusting to the left of her flowing hair… Not a huge deal but enough to ding it down to a 69er…
comment image

Craig

It’s a shame a gold flake downgrades a 70 to a 69, but I can see those imperfections clearly in those photos. Thanks for sharing.

John Q. Coinage

I see. Sometimes they are loose, and can be blown off. The hammer prices will be interesting

Kaiser Wilhelm

Pogo once so wisely said “We have found the enemy and he is us.” Was he ever right!
As long as people insist on buying coins on the secondary market at the usurious prices charged by flippers of any and every stripe it will be in the continued interest of those individuals to consistently acquire as much of the Mint’s output of limited coinage as possible. It’s a situation akin to the impossibility of shutting down the Mexican cartels as long as Americans can’t get enough of what they have to sell.

OIP
VinnieC

@Kaiser sometimes I pick up MS69s or PF/PR69s on the secondary market for a little bit more than US Mint release prices. Basically I picked up a slabbed coin for OGP prices. I only does this for where the 70s are going for a huge premium and the 69s are the cast-offs. I guess I am still contributing to the problem.

Kaiser Wilhelm

VinnieC,

Technically you are avoiding the stickiest part of this situation which is the driving up of secondary market prices. If you are paying barely more than what the mint charges that has a lot less of an effect on the boom in wild over-pricing.

smalltimecollector

I wonder what % of these coins will remain in the hands of the mint customers and what % will be bought to be stashed away? Then there will be the “marked auction” coins to be held.
I think a small % may ultimately float around the secondary market influenced by pm value. I sense there will be fewer available as time passes.
My purchase of this was influenced by the historical parallels. I tend like the modern offerings of coins I would find as pocket change.
I shy away from medals and commemoratives and surely don’t stack.

Pompeii

Mark Twain — ‘in order to make a man or boy covet a thing, it is only necessary to make the thing difficult to attain.’

Even slapping a tiny privy mark on a modern coin and limiting the mintage is all it takes to make it desired.

I was unimpressed with the gold when it arrived relative to the size of the silver.

coin-compare
Sam-I-am

Pompeii, Well, since gold is quite a bit denser than silver, it stands to reason that the same weight occupies less space. If you want a 1 oz. AU coin of the same diameter as AG, you’d have to make it much thinner, which many collectors would find distressing. Since this was a High Relief issue, the Mint had to make it relatively thick, which makes the diameter less. Gold has a density of 19.32 g/cm3 whereas silver has a density of only 10.49 g/cm3. Thus, a 1 oz bar of gold will be almost half as large as a 1… Read more »

CaliSkier

Pompeii, or others lucky enough to have obtained one, could you possibly clear something up for us here on Coin News please? Since you have this 2024 Flowing Hair Gold $1 in hand, can you take a look at the edge lettering and tell us whether the lettering is raised or incused? Thanks, CaliSkier

Last edited 18 days ago by CaliSkier
sharks2th

Incused according to the mint since no one here seems to have one or can answer the question.

Screenshot_20241117-232525_DuckDuckGo
VinnieC

@Pompeii you would have been really unimpressed with the 2009 UHR Double Eagle. It is only 27.00 mm in diameter. the FHG is 30.61mm. The 1 oz. American Gold Eagle is 32.70 mm

CaliSkier

VinnieC, your comment piqued my interest and all I can say is, “Uh oh”! With the noted diameters you relayed, I then wondered about the diameter of a U.S. Mint American Gold Buffalo? Much to my surprise, I found that it is also 32.7mm. I’m surprised and wondered how this can be? Since the total AGW is the same, 1 Troy ounce, and the overall weight is different due to the American Gold Eagle’s composition containing additional metal, the Eagle should be thicker? An American Gold Buffalo weighs in at 1Toz .999 fine gold weight/24K or 31.103g(US Mint 2018 specs).… Read more »

882F163C-EDED-4E8F-BD15-9EAF1826674F
Sam-I-am

Cali,

Though I have none of the above in hand to measure, I suspect you’re on the right track regarding relief height/depth. The Buffalo has always looked like a higher relief coin in photos, IMO. I’d love to be able to physically compare, but my wife insists that we pay our bills, put food on the table, etc.!

I would have expected a smaller diameter, as well. Can you trust the Mint specs not to have typo’s?

Major D

Funny Sam-I-Am, my wife is of the same mind set. As for thicknesses I didn’t see them in the Mint’s specs, but APMEX provides 2.95 mm for the Buffalo and 2.87 mm for the AGE. I have no idea how this was determined. perhaps measuring at the outside rim? At any rate the thicknesses provided do not compute with the average based on overall weight and metal density.

VinnieC

@Caliskier, I found this reddit discussion about the Buffalo vs the Maple Leaf. I don’t have a gold Buffalo to so how concave it really is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gold/comments/ysfn1e/how_is_it_possible_that_the_1_oz_american_buffalo/

Major D

Yes, you’re right the math doesn’t match the specs so it’s got to be how the thickness is measured in relief. Based on the same diameter of 32.7 mm and the masses given, the Gold Buffalo would have an average thickness of 1.93 mm, and the AGE an average thickness of 2.29 mm (1.93 mm gold + 0.12 mm silver + 0.24 mm copper). This is based on the overall mass times the inverse density of the metal (volume/mass) times the inverse area = thickness. AGE: area= 3.14 x 16.3^2= 834 mm^2 Gold: 31.1 g x (1,000 mm^3/19.3 g) x… Read more »

John Q. Coinage

Personally, I loved the HR o9, got 2. No leg$ tho

John Q. Coinage

Indeed, what happened when you lost you girl back I. The day…. U can’t have her…I WANT HER

Kaiser Wilhelm

Pompeii,

If the Mint had instead arranged to put the privy mark on the entire run of the FHG then the better part of the frenzy might have been avoided. “The road not taken.”

Rick

Kaiser,
The secondary market is the only option for a coin that I wish to obtain that was previously available for sale or otherwise. Whether it be from the the LCS, online, or privately. They are all flippers.
If I could teleport back to the 1800s, I would simply grab these coins pictured below for face value at the local saloon or the general store!..

IMG_20241002_1520481782
Last edited 18 days ago by Rick
Sam-I-am

Rick,

Those are some real beauties there! Thanks for the pics.

Help me learn a little bit – what valuation (roughly) would you give to these masterpieces?

Rick

Sam,
Thanks! I love em..
PCGS has them valued at around 10k, Greysheet wholesale probably has them valued closer to 8? and I paid more than PCGS due to the expensive toner market!)bottom two)…
They’re all CAC stickered/approved as well, but since I recently re-holdered all 5 for the special Morgan label(top right print), I’ll need to get them back to CAC for a re-stickering/legacy service…
Here’s one shown below with its old holder(the top right 1886), I kept the same cert numbers when reholdering so CAC recognizes them in their database as being previously stickered…
comment image

Last edited 17 days ago by Rick
John Q. Coinage

Just let me got to say late 1800s early 1900s buy PROOF GOLD….and Stella’s….

John Q. Coinage

Btw….Great 79s…

John Q. Coinage

Reverse o 79, seems a lot of cheek chatter I pix for a 67. IMHO they’ve loosened standards

Rick

Agreed and the heavy toning sort of disguises the cheek chatter, they’re fairly light abrasions/dings though. However the fields are spectacular. Hardly anything bad going on there.
Another finger zoomer delight for ya…
comment image

John Q. Coinage

That’s clean, the reverse is awesome

VinnieC

Nice Collection @Rick. I don’t think I even have a Morgan graded MS65 or better. Technically you bought from the secondary market not a secondary market flipper because 100+ year is a long time for a flip. 🙂 I wonder how many were dealers were competing with collectors in the GSA CC Morgan sales.

Rick

Thanks VinnieC, Flipper, Seller, Dealer, 6 or half dozen secondary…The Mint too, they really know how to flip for a profit! I’m sure there were a lot of coin shops grabbing those GSA’s, and some very wise collectors as well. The 1888 VAM 11 Double Ear above(top center个⁠)was a coin that you and I talked about for a bit before.. I stumbled upon the VAM while looking at my Morgans. I sent it in to be reholdered and Variety attributed, now it just needs it’s CAC sticker back and I’m all set with that one! (Below) PS: where do I… Read more »

IMG_20241002_1525409452
Craig

I’m wondering what is the significance of the 5th Au FH w/privy coin? Someone already has a bid of $22k for it and we’re still only in November.

E 1

I am thinking that Number 13 may not sell or may have a very low bid. The number 13 is bad mojo for a lot of people. Especially more so with numbered paintings, hotel room numbers, apartment numbers, floor numbers, street addresses, Fridays, serial numbers, flight numbers, and space missions.

Craig

E 1,

Do you have much experience being involved in these online auctions? How do we know a computer program (AI) hasn’t already set a floor on what these coins will go for or is just putting bids in to drive prices higher. It would be a shame if there was a coin you were interested in winning and you had to bid against either a bot or some kid (without any $$$) just gaming the system. I think these will go for high dollars, but the lack of transparency should concern everyone.It’s the new world we live in.

John Q. Coinage

Sounds like my concerns playIng online Poker for $$$$$…. Or Bitcoin even but I olde

AKBob

E1,

Is there floor a 13th floor in Elevators? I was thinking there isn’t for some reason. TIA! 😉

E 1

AKBob,

I’ve been in a number of tall buildings in NYC where there was no 13th floor. I personally never buy paintings with that number. Room 13 at a relatives care home is always empty. Ask any one in the aerospace industry about Apollo 13. People don’t like hotel rooms with that number. And I could go on and on. But I got chit to do Braah.

Cheers

Major D

H’mmm. 13 colonies leading to 13 stripes on the flag. I wonder, how many coins have 13 stars?

coronet-liberty-head-double-eagle-gold-twenty-d-no-motto
E 1

Major D,

That’s why I don’t own any of them. Saint Gaudens Double Eagle – different story.

Welcome Back Major. Nice Pics.

Cheers

Major D

Thx.

Antonio

That is a beautiful coin.

Major D

Yes indeed. That is the one-of-the-kind 1849 Coronet Head Gold $20 Double Eagle from the Smithsonian Collection. Valued at around $20 Million.

Craig

I love that reverse design! If this auction goes as I expect, I might look for one of those.

CaliSkier

Craig, I’d also noticed the high bids already for #5. I thought maybe an insider tipped someone off to this perhaps being an exemplary example of the MS70’s? However after further inspecting, this is as bad or worse than the MS69 examples Rick posted. The reverse has the “Big Dipper” and other asteroids at the bottom, between the “U”, ribbon and denticles. Also a fairly noticeable flaw on the obverse above the “20” between the neck line. Just use Ricks suggested finger zoom and see for yourselves. I’d give this coin a 68 and 69 at most. Granted this level… Read more »

63210001-C4AD-4952-BFE8-D8D64E63F3AE
Craig

CaliSkier,

You don’t think Gibson gave PCGS a little bag of something to garantee a certain grade outcome on these, do you? I’m unsure whether these specs are on the coin or the plastic holder. If they’re on the coin, then we have a problem, Houston! ‘Coin Mafia Grading Company’….I think we might get a better deal buying from them vs the slim prospect of acquiring anything from this auction. Lol.

John Q. Coinage

Lint from someone’s hair

VinnieC

@Craig, There is a parallel thread on Collectors Universe about #5. I keep on reading both because of the high level postings concerning the FHG both here and there. The participants or mostly different. The number five apparently is important number in numerology and has something to do with the ruling planet Mercury. @E1, #13 is not doing to bad for being both a PR69 and having the same number as Judas Iscariot and Loki. #4 is doing pretty well despite the number 4 sounding like death in Chinese, Japanese and Korean. By the same token the number 8 sound… Read more »

E 1

VinnieC,

Great chit there braaah. Marketing Numerology – definitely. I was thinking that the #8 FHG would be an attractive buy to Asia Pacific collectors and this auction is an international auction. Also, numbers 7 and 11 are lucky numbers to gamblers. Without a doubt, Number 1 is the grand prize. 27 days and counting.

E 1

Number 21, another gamblers favorite. Number 50, for the 50 states – any politician on the Hill would want this coin.

Later

smalltimecollector

10, 15, 94 of the original coin release date
11, 14, 24 of this edition release
59(fifty)… I digress
Numbers that vary the price, I’m amazed
There can be all sorts
#5? Joe DiMaggio, Johnny Bench?

Last edited 17 days ago by smalltimecollector
John Q. Coinage

Freddie Freeman 24!

Major D

24 Red

John Q. Coinage

So we have 17,000 -230…..16,770…..AP$ est. 3,400….13,370….. Bull bulker sales say 3,000…est. 10k for the plain old silly collectors=2minite “sell out”
Almost as good as the 50k sellout of the 70,000 pronunciation mintage represented by Ave tris et al. Furthering a loss of credibility beyond prior F’ups and bizarre actions.

AKBob

JQC,

The mintage of the FHG was 17,500 not 17K. I think I saw you say 17K previously but I ignored it but since you’re putting some numbers together, you need the correct mintage of 17,500. I’m not trying to be nit picky, just trying to help you with the correct mintage and the break down figures your doing is all! 😉

Major D

There’s a difference between mintage and mintage limit. The actual mintage will not be known for some time. The next sales report will be the first indication as to the number, though it’s likely to change + or – for the next several weeks. But I will bet the actual mintage will be below the mintage limit, as it’s always the case in the end. And even after something has been unavailable for some time there’s always additional sales that pop up. Accounting corrections or sweetheart deals, guess we’ll never know.

John Q. Coinage

AK you’re right but who knows, guessing on my part. But the 70,ooo mintage FHS morphed into a 50,000 mintage, perhaps 20k surface…..some where….
17,500 sold in2 m…$63,000,000 seems a stretch

John Q. Coinage

Uh. ….17, 27o

sharks2th

The lowest order number I have found is 14921547. In the other 14 order numbers I have found the highest was 14928727. This is a difference of 7180 sales numbers shown for the day 1 three minute window. The number 14931xxx was posted for a 11/15 sale. This would be about 2300 more transactions, but as pointed out, the mint does not always number orders sequentially and other items were probably bought in between. Another AM number of 149331xx could add another 2k to that additional 2300. I guess we’ll see when the sales numbers get posted adding in the… Read more »

Rick
Last edited 17 days ago by Rick
Keep Calm & Stack On

Thanks much Rick for posting, very timely and appropriate article….

“but suffice to say that the U.S. Mint will capture the market share from these coins, instead of letting collectors and dealers siphon off profits in the middle. 
The United States Mint is probably already the largest “coin dealer” in the world. Its auctions, er, actions are only sliding it further into the commercial realm.”

— just putting the truth out there…, touché

East Coast Guru

Good article. I still wonder what sort of legs these privy coins will have in a few years.

Craig

ECG,

One thing that will determine their ‘legs’ will be how many more ‘special’ coin auctions the mint will have from now on. If this turns into a big cash cow for the mint, does anyone here think they’ll just be satisfied with that or perhaps want more? I for one will not be surprised if the mint ‘finds’ all sort of rarities which they can then auction off for big money.

Major D

Yes, I’ll second that. Not that I agree with what the Mint’s doing, but if it’s in the business plan now of creating off-the-press $$$ rarities why not go straight to auction with them? Next, perhaps there’s a purposeful missed mint mark, misspelling or omitted “In God We Trust” up for auction. The rarer the better for profits. Perhaps a new Auctions division is in the cards to rival Numi, Bullion and Circulating.

smalltimecollector

What’s the chance that the First Coin Produced was not a 70 dcam and cycled back?
Beware what you suggest of mint auctioning “rarities”. It will be only an elitists club, and passed around during handshakes. No doubt the lucky auction house will be the lowest bidder ;).

Major D

smalltimecollector, I’m somewhat surprised the Mint didn’t seize the first coin off the press for some special photo op and Ventris signature for an added premium $$$. As for auctions and rarities becoming a standard Mint practice it’s just fanciful musing on my part. BTW I like your handle. I’m very much a small time collector, too!

Keep Calm & Stack On

@ Rick, et al.,

You think these Privy FHG (in general, excluding outliers like COA #1, 230, etc) will have any upside, 1, 3, 5-years out, beyond the 12 Dec auction sell price?

Wild guesstimate (given what we know today) ?

Anyone else? Thoughts?
Doesn’t cost ya anything..,

Helps me think through it, and from all angles,

AKBob

Rich, I’ve been pumping and promoting the “regular” FHG! I thot 17,500 was too many! I still believe it’s too many even with the three minute sell out! I personally am going to back pedal on this release. Originally, I thot if there was a sell out first day, these would have initial Legs minimally. I no longer feel that way! The OGP’s aren’t selling like I thot they would. The graded ones (70’s) are coming down in price, getting very close to the OGP prices. There’s many in 70 that are actually lower in price than one in OGP.… Read more »

sharks2th

Good summary AKBob. That’s about the same position I have regarding the future of these.

smalltimecollector

It’s a nice coin in hand and I’ll hang onto this and would let other things go prior.
I think the privy marks is a no-go. I don’t like special labels on graded coins either.
I also wonder if the factory kept the 230 special ones in order of strike, or ?
I looked over what the mail brought today with glass, this is a keeper.

East Coast Guru

Great rant!! I now have zero interest in buying one of these FHG’s. At least for a few years until the price stabilizes. Wish I could have bought it when it came out. Oh well, my strategy might work now and buy bullion for same price as mint sold it for and when I want to buy a FHG. sell my bullion while riding the gold escalator up to keep within striking distance.

Last edited 16 days ago by East Coast Guru
Kaiser Wilhelm

AKBob,

You brought up a good point about how all too many of us coin collectors are already too old to be able to factor in waiting years for a coin and/or coins to appreciate in value. I would say that appreciation over a period of several or in fact many years as a profit-enhancing strategy is definitely a younger man’s game.

Rich

Bearish AKBob, as sharks2th commented, your gut feeling, assessment and forecast on the current pricing and future appreciation of both the regular FHG and FHG w/230 privy coins is on target. The regular FHG coin would have been optimally purchased directly from the mint for some profit potential, and the upcoming auction prices for the FHG w/230 privy coins will likely already be reflecting most of their intermediate-term future price valuations, if not more. The FHG w/230 privy is now The lowest mintage modern era gold coin with a minuscule mintage = 230. It’s best counterpart for comparison is the… Read more »

AKBob

Rich, well after purchasing 3 maybe even one more, I’m Bearish, better late than not at all, lol! I was Bullish and now I’m either Bearish or Bullish with regrets! 😉 Rub it in Rich!

Craig

I’ll never let anyone tell me folks in Alaska don’t have any smarts! Lol. The regular Au FH were minted over 17k (17500 or 17270 who knows?) which for a Au ‘modern era’ coin is not anything close to rare (sorry Magic Mike). I wonder how long they would’ve be available on the site if the flippers didn’t scoop them up to instantly put on feeBay. As I’ve said, it’s a nice looking coin, but I already have plenty of nice looking coins. You’re also right about how much time most collectors have to see any appreciation for those privy… Read more »

John Q. Coinage

I think you need to see the track record on all other Privy Coins and see if they have appreciated, if they sell consistently @ the higher price, sales Not asking prices. This is another Au Privy, how has the market for up the V75 AGE and ASE gone, do they follow the usual fast pop up, then a gradual decline? And do you really WANT one! With the mintage over time May fall back, even to spot…hmmm. The Bronco has done great, but only 10k exist…. Unless Privy collectors # high may be hard to resell at a profit… Read more »

Keep Calm & Stack On

Thanks much Gentlemen.., REALLY APPRECIATE the thoughts, and great experience data points….

Insight perspectives all around… a lot of unpack..,

I’m at for a loss of words, just seeing the FHG sales # of 7,625 and wondering if that contains the AP bulk buys….

Signed,

Befuddled

Rick

I think the FHG Privy will have plenty of legs, but give it a few years to get going?. The upcoming auction in Dec will attract the venture capitalists who will attempt a quick flip, but also the venture collectors(like myself)that will tuck them away for a long while(not that I will win one?). The fewer that come to market over the years, the higher the price will go, and into the coffers those coins will go as well, hence the continued scarcity. The 230 mintage is quite low. These coins are a completely different coin as compared to the… Read more »

Keep Calm & Stack On

24YG 2024 FLOWING HAIR 24K GOLD PROOF 1 OZ – 7,625 (11/17/2024)

24YH2024 FLOWING HAIR SILVER MEDAL 1 OZ – 49,911

FHG – we don’t know of the 7,625 contains the bulk sales to APs under Bullion & Numismatic bulk/advance purchase programs; however the FHS has all sales lumped together.., so one could assume so…

Mr. Unser? Darrin.., any thoughts ?

Last edited 16 days ago by Keep Calm & Stack On
Keep Calm & Stack On

SHOULD there be another 10,000 FHG shipment to the fulfillment center in Texas.., sucks to be an eBay flipper….

Really would like to know how many the AP’s were allocated…, 7,625..,

Wow! That changes things.. & turns it on its head!

Keep Calm & Stack On

Sales to Stated Mintage Limit –

FHS – 49,966 (highest sales listed) / 75,000 = 66.62%

FHG – 7,625 / 17,270 (sans 230 Privies) = 44.15%

AKBob

Wow! That report is Stunning! Where is the Transparency from the Mint? Oh, that’s right, there isn’t any! Figures continuously changing! How could it possibly be 7600+ minted(mintage)? If that figure is correct, there’s another 10K still to be sold! I’m having a hard time believing the Mint has only sold 7600+ at this point! If and I say “if” that figure is correct, then Rich was so right saying, “it sucks to be a flipper”!! I’m already having buyers remorse. It’s kinda embarrassing to admit that out loud much less writing it down! I have been so correct/right on… Read more »

Rick

AKBob if you don’t want the OGP coin just retract your bid due to entering the wrong amount, or whatever reason! You’re not obligated to buy the coin if you’ve changed your mind, especially when it’s live bidding.
I have had many bidders retract their bids on items I’ve had for sale. I’m guessing you too, unless you are a BIN seller? There are no ramifications when you retract your bid.
I’m assuming you’re talking about an eBay auction here..

AKBob

Rick,

Yes, it’s eBay! Thx! 😉

AKBob

I can’t retract my bid, it’s too late, I tried. I had to ask the Seller if he would cancel my bid. There’s a bid that’s only $50 less than my bid. I hope he will cancel it. Fingers crossed!

Keep Calm & Stack On

Hope you get out of it AK.., here’s some random thoughts from the peanut gallery…. We can’t loose sight of the following CW article from 08 Nov, “U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved.” IF TRUE, that implies a Big Ass Barge full of FHGs are inbound.., heading down to fulfillment in Big Texas,  IF NOT TRUE, then the USM dysfunction and lack of transparency remains universal,  At today’s sales figures, I thought good about the FHG long term prospects.., THOUGH NOW, if only 7,625 have been… Read more »

Craig

AKBob, I buy coins, mostly Ag and Au coins, when I perceive value in them which is why I haven’t bought any this year from the mint, so far. For me, it’s all about the premiums they want. I think the mint has seen what some of their coin issues have brought on the secondary market (eBay) and they decided ‘What the Hell, let’s take our cut first!’ That puts a lot of pressure on the flippers, who always feel they should make at least $1k on any item they list. I now see there are 6 pages of these… Read more »

Mmk

As was mentioned FHS , Has a mintage of 75,000 .Mint has only sold close to 50,000, Perhaps they are producing a set of the gold and silver together …
Let’s just say around 10,000 sets

Keep Calm & Stack On

Because I’m a dork, and it’s dark outside.., ran the London Fix average, and by my rough #’s, they’re could be a gold price decrease on Thursday, right now we’re around $2,588….

So…, if AU drops back down toward $2,600.., and more FHG come to market this week or next, price would be $3,590

Gold remaining at current price will likely bring the average back up above $2,600….

So someone call Zelensky and tell him to stop dropping ATACMS into Russia, and then we’ll get our 50 buck price break.., war’s lost anyway,

MintGoldScam

The mint noticed how stupid people were with the silver privy marked coins and decided to keep all the “stupid gold privy money” for themselves.
There are insiders that move some of the $$$ coins to accomplices. No doubt. Too much easy money. The mint should be audited top to bottom. Standard practices should be enforced. It’s the wild west and employees NO DOUBT take advantage of it as much as they can. It’s very clear when looking at the sales patterns and who has the goods once they’re “sold”

Last edited 11 days ago by MintGoldScam